Does any other fellow FT's find it ironic how a company, just emerging from bankruptcy, can afford to be buying up new aircraft, and partying across the country like this?
I just amazes me that so many creditors were left holding the bills, and now they are out here throwing these big parties, purchasing new aircraft, etc..
Maybe it's just me, but I would've expected more fiscal constraint?
Thoughts?
]
Why did she bomb for Chrysler? Primarily it was a product and maybe not one many people wanted, .
Well, yes, it all comes down to that. One could use the same argument for AC. Either people want or don't want the product, which makes her presence irrelevant.
All I know is AC has used a lot of lease money so they are buying new planes... I assume its Airbus.... but it can only be either Airbus or Boeing as per the lease... :)
So its not just new uniforms and Paint they are going to buy/lease real planes not just RJ's :D
Well, they didn't make any such announcements today. So as of now it's uniforms, paint and new seating/entertainment for the existing fleet. The uniforms and paint get changed periodically anyway and come out of existing budgets. The new aircraft interiors - that new spending, but you have to be competitive.
... are you a little bitter about your pal Noce losing???
Not at all as a matter of fact. I think Mandel will do a great job and not be push over for the Tories unlike Homer Smith.
I have also known Patti for years as well as many of the other members of Mandel's team.
I have had dealings with Mandel in his capacity as Councillor and he impressed me.
If Celine is part of the CTC campaign, you can bet that the CTC picked up a big chunk of today by way of a total package.
change is good
Well, some change is good. Some change is bad. Some change is indifferent.
Change for the sake of change is generally bad.
....I'm sure that Patti Misutka who ran new Mayor Mandel's campaign is going to fill him in as to how wonderful AC is particularly after her brief stint as the spokesperson for that 'new' western airline, what was it called, oh yes Zip. Mandel was sure annoyed when Zip pulled out and all those pilots in YEG were no longer needed....
... are you a little bitter about your pal Noce losing???
Does any other fellow FT's find it ironic how a company, just emerging from bankruptcy, can afford to be buying up new aircraft, and partying across the country like this?
I just amazes me that so many creditors were left holding the bills, and now they are out here throwing these big parties, purchasing new aircraft, etc..
Maybe it's just me, but I would've expected more fiscal constraint?
Thoughts?
You have to spend money to make money. If AC doesn't improve itself, what makes you think the results would be any different after emerging from bankruptcy protection than before?
We have to give AC a chance, change is good and it does cost money. Let's be supportive and not negative. :p ^
Well, I wasn't trying to be negative, but I just think they are not really making the improvements where they need to be made. Sure, all of the things that have been mentioned are very valid... a new image is needed, upgrades to interiors of planes is needed, and all of the above. But I think they should be spending more time on keeping their loyal customers "loyal", and I have not seen anything here that makes me feel they are.
As I SE for 7+ years running, I value my SE benefits greatly. Those have been downgraded year over year since Mr. Milton has arrived. For those "loyal" SEs out here, I'm sure you would all agree? Why aren't they focusing on retaining these people?
I'm hoping they are saving a little bit if "new" news for each of the other roadshows. Perhaps new routes announced in YUL and new acft announced in YVR.
DaveHeff: The IWAA is asking a similar question to yours...
....Milton refused to say how much the kickoff cost." National Post
"As a large corporation we have significant budgets for items like advertising, and this fits comfortably within that budget," he said
....
Well since about 1600 EDT I have heard Celine's voice every 15 minutes on CTV-NewsNet and even when I switch to ROB-TV (same reporter even). CTV NewsNet even have a spot on the 'Business' portion about the 'new' fare offerings.
Looks like AC got their monies worth.
Celine probably has the most recognition internationally. If she helps AC pull in S. Americans and Europeans, go for it I say. It will be nice to see airline ads with a little glitz again, instead of the boring stuff.
Interesting thought with Shania if she had her songs on AC
Her songs like"Don't be stupid"(aimed at Westjet? :D ) "Whatever you do,don't"(Transat)'That don't impress me much"(Canjet),You're still the one"(AC,Fter's) and "come on over" to the rest of the world.Imagine the possibilities. :p :D
Shania will be in Timmins November 2nd.She is sooooooo much easier to look at than Celine :cool: IMO.
Amen reverend!
Welcome to FT Nothwich :)
.. LH owns their fleet, doesn't lease it any part of it, and are proud of it. .....
There are different tax and ownership rules in the German system. In some cases, leasing in Germany can mean that the 'rent' paid is not tax deductable as it is in North America.
All I know is AC has used a lot of lease money so they are buying new planes... I assume its Airbus.... but it can only be either Airbus or Boeing as per the lease... :)
So its not just new uniforms and Paint they are going to buy/lease real planes not just RJ's :D
So how much has been spent?
Millions? Thousands? A few bucks out of pocket?
You object to all of the money being spent. Just how much is it?
Well, I actually never mentioned any figures in my original post as you can see. I was just merely pointing out what I see happening, and wanted to get peoples opinions. From the sounds of it, most people are in agreement on the new announcements. Differences of opinion are what make us human!
But Dion represents the perfect messenger for AC's marketing objectives:
1. She is both French Canadian and English. This further blunts the Blocheads who are insisting the airline is going to bolt from its Montreal HQ and forget about Quebec
2. She can appeal to both English and French customers in Canada and thus makes it possible to sell AC with a single campaign [unlike Shania who would require a Quebec/French alternative]
3. She is a world-known celebrity identified with Canada, so makes AC's international marketing push more accessible in many overseas markets [even at the height of the Fish Dispute with Spain, her six-story high visage was featured on the side of el Corte Ingles, the giant Madrid department store, looking out over Place del Sol]
4. She brings some glitz and glamour [well, okay that's subjective] to the airline and proved this by securing the media coverage it did; just as Jackie Chan presents a certain image to CX in its overseas campaigns
There are few other Canadian celebrities that can cut across so many variables when it comes to marketing. Why did she bomb for Chrysler? Primarily it was a product and maybe not one many people wanted, so there was no natural affinity between Dion and that product. [Also, people forget it was part of a wider campaign that also featured Diana Krall.] What other Canadian celebrity could AC go for who did this? Gretzky: while he may be well known among sports fans, he is hardly known in many parts of the world where AC will be agressively courting new customers. Avril and Shania are too niche market, as is Sarah McLaughlan. Eric McCormack, er well...good cross-over, but still limited to NAmerica. Pamela what's her name?
Anyhow, one never convinces everybody, so...
There are few other Canadian celebrities that can cut across so many variables when it comes to marketing.
.....Pamela what's her name?
I don't think Ms. Sachs can sing. :D
where are Mitsou
Don't know what else she's doing, but she's on morning radio in Montreal http://www.radioenergie.ca/asp/animateurs/animateurs_detail.asp?User=1151
Celine is a interesting choice... she does have a great set of pipes. As Altaflyer mentions, the only other Cdn entertainer that comes close is Shania, and perhaps her image is better suited to WS.
Much better pipes, for sure.
=aw
Does any other fellow FT's find it ironic how a company, just emerging from bankruptcy, can afford to be buying up new aircraft, and partying across the country like this?
I just amazes me that so many creditors were left holding the bills, and now they are out here throwing these big parties, purchasing new aircraft, etc..
Maybe it's just me, but I would've expected more fiscal constraint?
Thoughts?
I suppose.
However, the debt held by major creditors has been converted into equity. The best way to increase the return on this equity is for the new company to be successful, thereby increasing the share price.
Re-branding is incredibly important for companies emerging from bankruptcy protection, especially a company such as AC that emerges with so much baggage (bad PR, angry staff, staff wars, terrible problems during merge with CAIL etc).
I'm not suggesting that this rebranding will cure any or all of these problems. But in general, I think it's necessary to distance ACE from the old AC for everyone involved. Money well spent.
IMHO anyway.
Canadair.
How can one be both at the same time?
Dual citizenship, although I'm sure that's not what was meant.
=aw
There are different tax and ownership rules in the German system. In some cases, leasing in Germany can mean that the 'rent' paid is not tax deductable as it is in North America.
Most airlines owned their fleets until the 80s when American tax rules were changed to encourage growth of the leasing/finance industry [GE flourished as did several other such companies, one of which AC owned a nice piece of and sold for a good profit]. This also meant US airlines could relieve themselves of capital-intensive burdons of debt and clean up their balance sheets by selling off their fleets, retiring the debt associated with those aircraft, and using the proceeds to keep afloat in thin revenue periods. Similar tax changes occured here to encourage leasing while both AC and CP divested their owned/mortgaged fleets to raise money to keep operating during the 90s.
apparently I have been told that Celine wasn't paid but it was done
on a barter agreement....she would get x amount of dollars worth of
air travel. Now I can't say for sure if it is true enough but AC has had
barter agreements with other companies so it is possible.
We have to give AC a chance, change is good and it does cost money. Let's be supportive and not negative. :p ^
Well since about 1600 EDT I have heard Celine's voice every 15 minutes on CTV-NewsNet and even when I switch to ROB-TV (same reporter even). CTV NewsNet even have a spot on the 'Business' portion about the 'new' fare offerings.
Looks like AC got their monies worth.
LOL...Are you kidding? More likely Celine got AC's money's worth.
I don't disagree that a new "brand" might be a good idea (although I have experience with this branding stuff, and it only works when you follow through with your promise). I'm not exactly sure what AC's promise is any more. It seems like they're going after the business market again. Fine, as long as there are expense accounts aplenty, AC can try to fashion itself as a high end international carrier. When the market dips, they won't have many of their traditional economy fare passengers to rely on any more....right now they seem to be doing everything they can to alienate them.
By the way, I firmly believe AC would have received the same media attention without the Celine gimmick. How she fits the new brand is beyond me. (Maybe Westjet should hire Shania Twain.)
Interesting thought with Shania if she had her songs on AC
Her songs like"Don't be stupid"(aimed at Westjet? :D ) "Whatever you do,don't"(Transat)'That don't impress me much"(Canjet),You're still the one"(AC,Fter's) and "come on over" to the rest of the world.Imagine the possibilities. :p :D
Shania will be in Timmins November 2nd.She is sooooooo much easier to look at than Celine :cool: IMO.
Thanks for my morning laugh! ^
The last part is actually not as ridiculous as it sounds, Come On Over was actually used in an Ontario Travel commercial shown in New York state.
Canadair
You haven't figured out yet that all of the trash talk in Edmonton has driven Air Canada away?
Ri-i-i-ig-h-t! :rolleyes:
People have just "...voted with their wallets".
I'm sure that Patti Misutka who ran new Mayor Mandel's campaign is going to fill him in as to how wonderful AC is particularly after her brief stint as the spokesperson for that 'new' western airline, what was it called, oh yes Zip. Mandel was sure annoyed when Zip pulled out and all those pilots in YEG were no longer needed.... isn’t it ironic? :: SONGSPEAK.COM :: music + lyrics + tv + movies ::
Sep 23, 2008 Collegehumor.com even modified the lines from Alanis’ song to make them actually ironic. I like their examples better, because, well,
http://www.songspeak.com/tag/isnt-it-ironic/HOME |
LOL...Are you kidding? More likely Celine got AC's money's worth.
By the way, I firmly believe AC would have received the same media attention without the Celine gimmick. How she fits the new brand is beyond me. (Maybe Westjet should hire Shania Twain.)
That thought can be spun in a fitting kind of way.
Celine Dion is old and tired (does anthing new come out of Las Vegas) but Shania Twain is newer and upcoming.
Just a thought to throw away. I'm more or less indifferent about the announcement.
I heard a rumour that there was a rider in Celine's contract that she refused to fly yesterday on any of AC's patented Dash8/CRJ tarmac-to-tarmac flights and that is the reason she didn't come to YEG. :D That and the fact Milton doesn't dare show his face here and Celine had the only bodyguard.... :p
DaveHeff: The IWAA is asking a similar question to yours...
"Unionized workers gave up more than $1 billion a year in cost cuts to help in the airline's restructuring, and the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers was indignant about Air Canada's spending on the Toronto ceremony and similar parties in other centres.
Spokesman Jocelyn Vincent said he was shocked by the lavish expenditure by a company just emerged from bankruptcy protection after wringing concessions in salaries and working conditions from its workers.
Milton refused to say how much the kickoff cost." National Post
"As a large corporation we have significant budgets for items like advertising, and this fits comfortably within that budget," he said
http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=7b541028-5c92-4f1e-a6d5-e6ed06425484
You're sounding like those Blocheads in Parliament today who were demanding the government pass laws to ensure AC(E) doesn't move its HQ or major ops out of Montreal. This is a fully private company now, but some people can't seem to get that through their heads.
As for these expenses, these are tiny compared to the overall operating costs of AC. Planes get repainted every few years, so outside of design costs, there is little added cost here. And uniforms don't last forever either, and must be replaced regularly, so where's the cost here, again aside from the initial design, fitting and distributions.
As for the new cabins, just about everyone on this forum has complained about AC's worn cabins and lack of standardization. This had to be addressed and it now has. It would have been done earlier had not CCAA intervened.
All these inititatives and costs would have been well factored into the cost of AC(E) emerging from CCAA, and its ongoing business plan. There were a lot of hard heads around the table who banged out the deal, and they certainly made sure money was not wasted. And at the same time, would have wanted to ensure there was a New AC heading back into the skies, not the same old. These guys recognized the need for an updated image and enhancements of the product.
Lastly, I would suspect that even most AC(E) staff would recognize the need for these changes. Although many might initially resent having given up so much of their pay, and seeing the company spend some in this way, their morale also needed an uplift, which this is in part intended to achieve.
True, the bucks that Celine received might be questioned, but then it was intended to get the publicity and IDing AC with Canada's top musical export, who is known worldwide, can be considered a major marketing/PR coup.
Most airlines owned their fleets until the 80s when American tax rules were changed to encourage growth of the leasing/finance industry ....
I just checked the LH annual report and they actually lease over 60 aircraft. The mainline ones are mostly short term leases to fill gaps in deliveries or to cover equipment shortages due to maintanance. The majority of their leases are with the regional fleets and this might have to do with the ownership structure of their subsiduaries.
The rules are changing in Germany and clever bankers and lawyers are finding new tricks to pull. :)
Buying would mean they're finally following Lufthansa's model. LH owns their fleet, doesn't lease it any part of it, and are proud of it. Had a chance to mentioned this to a certain AC V.P. way back when, while she was boasting about how AC leases it's planes. I distinctly recall her assertion that leasing was somehow just as good, if not better than owning. .
I could be wrong but I believe that GE capital is really the "owner" of some of the so-called leased aircrafts. The airline company may purchase some airplanes but usually the receivables are sold to a third party ( this case GE Capital)- it is called factoring in the business.
I used to know someone who was working in this field down in Connecticut @ GE though i am not aware of the particulars of the airline companies or A/C for that matter ;) .
So how much has been spent?
Millions? Thousands? A few bucks out of pocket?
You object to all of the money being spent. Just how much is it?
From two of the employees on AEF:
I've seen the glitz and the in-flight stuff that will go with it. Bravo.
Why? Well, for starters, not one detractor has had any better ideas on how AC could signal the start of a new direction.
To all those who are terminally bitter and twisted, maybe it's time to have a look in the mirror and ask yourself if you really have it in you to ever get behind this company again. After all you've been through, that's a possibility.
If so, maybe it's time to move on, before those around you tell you to put a sock in it.
Just my opinion
I agree. The past couple of years have been pretty lousy, but it's time that we all just get over it and put it behind us despite the legitimate reservations that many of us have about some of our management.
Whether we like the guy or not, Milton has a business plan that most seem to consider viable, and I far prefer the international expansion that is now underway at AC to the slashing and burning that most of the American carriers are doing. Making concessions has been difficult, but who at Jetsgo or Westjet would feel sorry for anyone who makes an AC salary or works under AC's work rules?
UA's employees are probably about to see their pension plans terminated and are in for another round of concessions. US Airways staff have just taken a court ordered 20% paycut on top of the two rounds of concessions they have already made. UA and US may yet face liquidation. We haven't done all that badly in comparison.
We have to give AC a chance, change is good and it does cost money. Let's be supportive and not negative. :p ^
Good call!
...That and the fact Milton doesn't dare show his face here and Celine had the only bodyguard.... :p
You haven't figured out yet that all of the trash talk in Edmonton has driven Air Canada away?
That's certainly possible, but even if she was paid millions, consider this. She is being paid not only for the event, but for the song which is the centre piece of an advertising campaign that will run in Canada, the US and the UK.
consider the music video for a moment...
this thing is playing on mtv asia, europe, states, vh1, mm,... all for a flat fee.
no recurring fees for multiple airings like a regular tv ad. brilliant. and as the song gets more popular and exposure so does the AC exposure.
makes me wish it was orignally my idea. and besides it's kinda catchy and i'm not a celine fan.
Well, I wasn't trying to be negative, but I just think they are not really making the improvements where they need to be made. Sure, all of the things that have been mentioned are very valid... a new image is needed, upgrades to interiors of planes is needed, and all of the above. But I think they should be spending more time on keeping their loyal customers "loyal", and I have not seen anything here that makes me feel they are.
As I SE for 7+ years running, I value my SE benefits greatly. Those have been downgraded year over year since Mr. Milton has arrived. For those "loyal" SEs out here, I'm sure you would all agree? Why aren't they focusing on retaining these people?
Well some of us Don't agree.... ask Parnel.
Start shopping FF programs... lots of great COMPS are available if you Fly international. I will only get E with AC... not that they care :)
At first, I did not like the idea of new livery and new uniforms. However, I was quickly convinced that a new look is part of a re-branding exercise.
Aircraft have to be stripped down of paint at heavy maintenance checks and repainted. Why not change the look after more than 10 years? As for uniforms, rumour has it that they are more practical. If so, staff will feel better with the change... The interiors of the aircraft badly need updating on certain aircraft types..
Feedback has also been positive on improved customer service. If this continues, it bodes well.
Buying would mean they're finally following Lufthansa's model. LH owns their fleet, doesn't lease it any part of it, and are proud of it. Had a chance to mentioned this to a certain AC V.P. way back when, while she was boasting about how AC leases it's planes. I distinctly recall her assertion that leasing was somehow just as good, if not better than owning. Would be glad to see AC move away from that line of thinking. Leased planes may be perfectly safe, everything traceable etc..., but most people take better care of what belongs to them, and there's a a darned good reason why used-car salesmen always try to hide the fact that the car you're looking at used to be a rental.
AC could do a lot stupider things than opting to buy as opposed to leasing.
Interesting, but consider this
Had AC had the wherewithal two years ago to buy, say, US$1 billion worth of aircraft (back when the C$ was worth 62 cents US), those aircraft would be worth 30% less because of currency appreciation. Had it leased in those planes, paying US$ lease rates, their lease rates would be down 30% today because of the stronger C$. Westjet did pay cash for some of its new 737-700s when the C$ was very low, and while I am no accountant, you would think that if the dollar remains at or near current levels - or goes even higher - that WJ will have to write down some of the value of those aircraft at some point.
By the way, I firmly believe AC would have received the same media attention without the Celine gimmick. How she fits the new brand is beyond me. (Maybe Westjet should hire Shania Twain.)
Interesting thought with Shania if she had her songs on AC
Her songs like"Don't be stupid"(aimed at Westjet? :D ) "Whatever you do,don't"(Transat)'That don't impress me much"(Canjet),You're still the one"(AC,Fter's) and "come on over" to the rest of the world.Imagine the possibilities. :p :D
Shania will be in Timmins November 2nd.She is sooooooo much easier to look at than Celine :cool: IMO.
apparently I have been told that Celine wasn't paid but it was done
on a barter agreement....she would get x amount of dollars worth of
air travel. Now I can't say for sure if it is true enough but AC has had
barter agreements with other companies so it is possible.
That's certainly possible, but even if she was paid millions, consider this. She is being paid not only for the event, but for the song which is the centre piece of an advertising campaign that will run in Canada, the US and the UK. And the US and UK portion has morphed into a three year $46 million campaign jointly financed by the Canadian Tourism Commission to get foreigners to visit Canada. AC and the feds are asking provincial governments and private sector companies (hotel chains?) to kick in money in exchange for some consideration in the campaign. If that happens, the campaign will be expanded.
Dion is the most recognized Canadian singer among people outside the country. Her role in the ad is central to the campaign. With advertising, you don't spend a dollar to make a dollar, you spend a dollar to make many dollars. So the IAM and CAW and SAD SACHS can carp and whine, but this is how an international airline goes about strengthening its international brand recognition.
All I know is AC has used a lot of lease money so they are buying new planes... I assume its Airbus.... but it can only be either Airbus or Boeing as per the lease... :)
So its not just new uniforms and Paint they are going to buy/lease real planes not just RJ's :D
Buying would mean they're finally following Lufthansa's model. LH owns their fleet, doesn't lease it any part of it, and are proud of it. Had a chance to mentioned this to a certain AC V.P. way back when, while she was boasting about how AC leases it's planes. I distinctly recall her assertion that leasing was somehow just as good, if not better than owning. Would be glad to see AC move away from that line of thinking. Leased planes may be perfectly safe, everything traceable etc..., but most people take better care of what belongs to them, and there's a a darned good reason why used-car salesmen always try to hide the fact that the car you're looking at used to be a rental.
AC could do a lot stupider things than opting to buy as opposed to leasing.
The machinists b!tching just goes to show how many unions just don't "get" how business works. Do they want the dollars spent on Celine added to every emplyees cheque instead, for what a couple of extra bucks to take home? She's the hook for the story. I'm sure they'd go for a bargain basement has-been to save money (where are Mitsou or Rene Simard :eek: )
Mind you, Celine is a interesting choice. Her match-up with Chrysler is generally considered an expensive failure. Perhaps her Canadian connection will be a better match for AC. She is known around the world, and despite her penchant for over-arranged sentimentality, she does have a great set of pipes. As Altaflyer mentions, the only other Cdn entertainer that comes close is Shania, and perhaps her image is better suited to WS.
She is both French Canadian and English.
How can one be both at the same time? :p
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