Independent surveys have it at 350 million.
Between 26 and 29 teams in the Red.
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A strike will cost baseball in TV revenues between 200 million and 400 million.
A strike could put up to 10 teams out of business.
Read more:
http://msn.espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0808/1415598.html
I cannot vision a strike under most circumstances. However, given the economic stucture of baseball, I think things will continue to worsen.
IMHO, Baseball and Hockey appear to be in far worse shape, financially, than MLS is at the moment.
Originally posted by superdave
For example, it's typical that teams pay salaries to their owners. Seriously, I'm not joking.
I believe you. Especially since a great many businesses, including most sole proprietorships, do the exact same thing. If you're in business for yourself, you pay yourself a salary. Why wouldn't you?
Originally posted by SoFla Metro
Excellent article in this week's SI regarding minor league baseball. I'll try to find a link if anybody's interested
I just got mine yesterday and didn't see it. Is it the College Football Preview issue and I just didn't look closely enough?
Last I read today, the luxury tax was the big sticking point. It may be that there may, in fact, not be a strike.
But if there is, it will not kill baseball. It will, rather, save it.
The owners have so, so many tricks.
For example, it's typical that teams pay salaries to their owners. Seriously, I'm not joking.
The St. Louis Cardinals' parking doesn't go to the Cards, but to a separate entity. Controlled by the same folks who own the Cards. But that profit doesn't count for the Cards.
The Braves and the Cubs, on Superstations, have middle of the road TV contracts. For example, the Braves make as much as the Indians. Again, I'm not joking.
There's a reason baseball won't let the players talk about what they've seen in the owners' books. (Check out Selig's congressional testimony, where Fehr was begging for Selig to life the gag order, and Selig wouldn't let him. Congressmen were asking Selig to grant Fehr permission to speak, and Selig acted like he didn't understand the question.)
I just read something about minor league baseball...wait a minute, I'll find it...
Oh, recent article in the Boston Herald, apparently.
Arthur Johnson, a professor at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, and author of the book ``Minor League Baseball and Local Economic Development.'' said: "``(Minor league baseball) is simply not going to generate that much revenue,'' (Teams) are making money. A few might make really good money. But most of them are probably getting by with a couple-percent profit.''
Part of that is that if you're an affiliated minor-league team, the major league team pays most (if not all) of the player salaries and pays for most (I believe) of the equipment. Or, if you're in the unaffiliated minors, you pay the players so little that you can still make money. Or, you sell players to major league organizations, which is another source of revenue.
The other way to make money in minor league baseball is to sell a team for more than you bought it for, which apparently happens quite a bit as well.
I wonder if cutting the minors free of the "scholarship system" would be one part of the ReOrganization of Baseball, if there is one. Though I haven't seen that anywhere.
Originally posted by superdave
The owners have so, so many tricks.
If there are baseball fans on the board who are interested in the business end of baseball, I suggest you RUN (not walk) to your nearest library or bookstore and pick up "Baseball and Billions" by Andrew Zimbalist. For anyone who even occassionally takes the owners claims of losses at face value, it will be an enlightening read to say the least.
I couldn't possibly go into the accounting shenanigans they use, but here's a partial list: exorbitant salaries for owners, same party transactions (IE, the Cubs and WGN are owned by the same people so transactions between the two can be massaged in any way they please), counting minor league expenses but not counting the resulting minor league revenues, depreciation of players (covered in Zimbalists book, a great tax swindle invented by Bill Veeck) and so on.
In short, I'll believe MLB is in financial trouble when one of the teams sells at a loss for the first time in decades.
To conclude, some quotes:
"Professional baseball is on the wane. Salaries must come down or the interest of the public must be increased in some way. If one or the other does not happen, bankruptcy stares every team in the face."
--Albert Spalding, 1881.
"You go through The Sporting News of the last 100 years, and you will find two things are always true. You never have enough pitchers, and nobody ever made money."
--Donald Fehr
"Anyone who quotes profits of a baseball club is missing the point. Under generally accepted accounting principles, I can turn a $4 million profit into a $2 million loss, and I can get every national accounting firm to agree with me."
--Paul Beeston, Toronto Blue Jays, 1978
"Baseball's owners must be the only U.S. citizens whose parents never told them the story of the boy who cried wolf."
--Andrew Zimbalist
"You don't make money operating a baseball team. You make it selling a baseball team."
--Bill Veeck
I heard on the radio today some talk about teams losing money. And it is all about accounting. For example, teams who own their stadium can write down the depreciation of the stadium each year. They also write down the deprication of the value of their players.
Originally posted by kenntomasch
Last I read today, the luxury tax was the big sticking point. It may be that there may, in fact, not be a strike.
But if there is, it will not kill baseball. It will, rather, save it. It will be dead to me, especially with my Braves 18 freakin' games in first place!
It's the same as the 250MM MLS loss. A bunch of owners using accounting to look as poor as possible. Just bargaining propaganda. Certainly, some teams are in financial difficulty, but it isn't as bad as some would say.
Originally posted by kenntomasch
I believe you. Especially since a great many businesses, including most sole proprietorships, do the exact same thing. If you're in business for yourself, you pay yourself a salary. Why wouldn't you?
I don't have a problem with that. I even have little problem with owners claiming they're losing money when they (to use a hypothetical) are claiming losses of $5M when they pay themselves $10M.
What I have a problem with is the media giving their cries for player givebacks any respect.
Originally posted by USAsoccer
IMHO, Baseball and Hockey appear to be in far worse shape, financially, than MLS is at the moment.
maybe so, but at the same time those 2 sports have a greater ability to dig themselves out of a hole than MLS does.
Originally posted by falcon6
I don't believe baseball is losing 400 million this year and i don't believe mls loses 50 million a year. Just owners playing with numbers in labor negotiations, happens in every field.
There is one difference. MLS can't be losing 50 million per year. It is an impossibilitiy.
Originally posted by USAsoccer
Independent surveys have it at 350 million.
Between 26 and 29 teams in the Red.
A strike will cost baseball in TV revenues between 200 million and 400 million.
A strike could put up to 10 teams out of business.
Don't put a lot of stock into any public statements for parties involved in a negotiation. The whole purpose of this is to sway public opinion against the players.
If 10 teams were really in danger of going out of business, their owners would be bailing on them left and right and teams would be getting sold.
How many baseball franchises have been sold recently where an owner said "I can't afford this anymore"?
That should tell you all you need to know about whether these guys are really making money or not.
Originally posted by bojendyk
And, at the same time, minor league teams are (apparently) doing incredibly well. I don't think MLB is going to die any time soon any more than the cash-strapped Serie A is going to die. (This is not to say that the Expos won't pull a Fiorentina, however.) Excellent article in this week's SI regarding minor league baseball. I'll try to find a link if anybody's interested
I don't believe baseball is losing 400 million this year and i don't believe mls loses 50 million a year. Just owners playing with numbers in labor negotiations, happens in every field.
Originally posted by kebzach
maybe so, but at the same time those 2 sports have a greater ability to dig themselves out of a hole than MLS does.
And, at the same time, minor league teams are (apparently) doing incredibly well. I don't think MLB is going to die any time soon any more than the cash-strapped Serie A is going to die. (This is not to say that the Expos won't pull a Fiorentina, however.)
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Baseball Losses this year ar 400 million plus