Fingerprinting policy- don't let the issue die - Re: Making sure that policy amendments don't die - nnkl.com

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Fingerprinting policy- don't let the issue die

Fingerprinting policy- don't let the issue die
Published by: mike 2009-01-09

Welcome to:nnkl.com

Please do not let this subject die out of our attention...
On November 20th, 2007 the revised Immigration Control and Refugee
Recognition Act took effect enforcing mandatory fingerprinting and

Re: Making sure that policy amendments don't die::
Or else, post an alternative, and let the group decide which one is better. . Re: Making sure that policy amendments don't die Adam Di Carlo
http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-policy@lists.debian.org/msg06421.htmlHOME

Michael Panda: Nekobukuro Kitty Kats::
Nov 4, 2007 I heard about the fingerprinting policy that's going into effect in Japan, but I imagine you're referring to other, more serious issues as
http://www.michaelpanda.com/blog/archives/001226.htmlHOME

facial photographing of all foreign `visitors` regardless of visa
status. Each and every time you come and go you will be subjected
to this humiliating and unnecessary procedure. Here are some simple
things you can do-
Please sign the petition to abolish this policy at:
w.ipetitions.com/petition/fingerprints-japan
download and distribute the "tract"
w.reentryjapan.blogspot.com
Also you can wear a protest t-shirt:
//samuraicanuck.tripod.com
If your argument is that fingerprinting is okay, please visit
w.debito.organd read more on the topic...it will scare you.
If you say "Well, the U.S. does it, many nations will be doing it
so what's the big deal?" YES, the U.S. is doing it, but they do
not fingerprint their residents (i.e. green card holders) which
Japan now does. Mixed marriage families are now torn apart at
immigration while one parent is treated like a criminal while the
rest of the family waits and watches. Is this right? Who is the
government protecting by doing this? The U.S. only has individuals
go through the procedure once, this is NOT the case in Japan, you
will be subjected to this each and every time you enter. As well
there is plenty of well documented evidence of misuse, malfunctions,
and failures of the U.S. immigration fingerprinting system to reach
its goals.
If you think this kind of information gathering is safe or will
`protect' you, think again. The Japanese government has already
stated they will share the information with other international and
national bodies. Ask yourself this question: Do you really trust
governments to securely hold your vital personal information? Do
you trust the Japanese government, given their almost daily scandals
of fraud, bribery, and racist comments? Heck, they can't even
protect their own citizen's personal information, what makes you
think they can protect your information?
Here are links to stories of information leaks by the Japanese
government (military blunder)-
w.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20071118TDY02309.htm
(Japanese Embassy in Belgium)-
//mdn.mainichi.jp/national/news/20071105p2a00m0na005000c.html
Just look what recently happened in the United Kingdom �
//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7103566.stm
If you say you have "nothing to hide, so why worry" then reply to
this post with YOUR bank account number and P.I.N. I dare you!
Biometric I.D. is used for bank account information as well, now and
increasingly in the future your personal information may be subject
to compromise, the most reliable way to protect yourself is to NOT
give out this information.
Inform yourself. Do something.

J-government do not force foreigners to do fingerprint. If they don't like, they can return to his plane to leave Japan. Nobody blame.

WRONG! If a foreigner refuses to give their fingerprints, they will be arrested and will have their fingerprints taken by force (http://www.debito.org/index.php/?p=777), and then deported (and consequently barred from Japan for 10 years.)

This is in contrast to the USA, where if somebody refuses to give their prints they may return to their country unhindered, and return to the USA at any time without prejudice.

Fingerprint me. I had to give fingerprints to open my bank account. If I want to go to Japan, I have to follow the rules. My husband gets fingerprinted and his photo taken to get into the US. I do think it will keep some undesirables out; not that Japan is a hot bed for terrorists or the like.

Plus there are other registered people (human beings, Homo sapiens, not just Japanese citizens) that are actually exempt from the process!

So not all have to go through with it?

yokoso_tee
Last Activity: Dec 5, 2007 22:56

Wish she would never die and would bring new info here.

And, it doesn't matter if you have nothing to hide. Besides the principle of the while thing, your prints may end up being misread by police, and you could be falsely accused or arrested.

Giving liberty brings tyranny and not security.

Fingerprint me.

As a kid in Australia, we had police days at school where the police would come and give the kids an informative talk.

The fingerprinting was the highlight for the kids, a lot of fun, although at the same time, being taught that bad people are fingerprinted.

This was always my thought.

Of course landing in Japan, fingerprinting for the "Alien" registration card was compulsory at that time, although it eventually changed.

the second time I was fingerprinted was when I was pulled over on my scooter for going through the railway crossing..

I could not believe they wanted my fingerprints..

I believe fingerprinting is a violation of privacy and human right's.

Everybody on this web site should read this. Just came out yesterday. Nice history of human right abuses and changes for the better and changes back again, from one of the influential people caught in the midst of it about 30 years ago (and still here and still not naturalized).
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20080108zg.html

What was the catalyst or reason for reinstating this policy now?

Having said that, the fact that America started the fingerprinting issue makes it all a bit awkward. I think that if we want Japan to stop this practice, we should first try to stop the practices of Japan's big brother US.

I thought Japan was first with the fingerprinting? It was certainly there in '98 when I first went to Japan, only to be later abandoned (and quite rightly so)?

Sure you can have dual citizenship in the USA, but not in Japan. I didn't know we were bringing many countries in to this discussion.There are a lot of things you don't realize here.

My husband doesn't want US citizenship because his job is in JapanSo is mine.

and he had no assurances that he can remain in the USA.So, you aren't reason enough?

He says basically what I wrote previously. He gets fingerprinted and his picture taken every time we enter the USA.And, what is his opinion about the Japanese policy?

As for your situation I still say this, if Japan is your home make it official.It is official. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be paying rent and taxes and health insurance payments and life insurance here, and I would be considered an illegal alien.

Permanent residency just means you can live there for a long timeYup, permanently is pretty long, isn't it?

I wonder why some people force facts into become personal issues.Me, too. I state facts, and some people make ludicrous statements that are pretty personal.

This is quite simple, really. If you are in another country you have to apply by its rules, the worse you can do is try to force your mentality to others on their own country. Not every country is equal and you just have to respect that.I do abide by the rules, but there are rules that need to be changed because of certain human rights that the country where I live has ostensibly claimed to uphold, yet doesn't.

I don't force mentality on anyone here. I try to show them where they are wrong and need to change.

Plus, all this discrimination talk would make sense if anyone was actually being damaged by this policy. Is that true in any way? If it only did you feel bad, why don't you just deal with it?

Best wishes,People like me are trying to deal with it. Aren't you reading? As for the damage done, skip back a few pages before inserting your foot in your mouth too far.

made of stone, you should know what you country requires from the visa applicants.
To be a great multi-cultural country like your country, Japan needs the fingerprint and Japanese language skill for visa applicants first.

Japan is the 2nd country to introduce the fingerprint after USA. In US 9-11 changed alot of things. The government took away personal freedom in the name of security. I tend to look at it from an another way. If you change laws due to terrorism you are losing to the terrorists because their goal is to spread fear so by not changing a damn thing you rise above the terrosist and the fear they want you to have.

If I lived in Japan, had my family in Japan, worked in Japan, I would get a Japanese passport. I don't want to live in Japan, I don't want to work in Japan; I live in the USA and that's that. My husband chooses to keep his Japanese citizenship while living in the USA so he gets fingerprinted. That's his choice. He could avoid it all, but he wants to keep his Japanese passport and citizenship. ... Of course you can't become Japanese, as in genetics, but you CAN get a Japanese passport. You come off very wishy-washy at best...
Wishy-washy means someone can't make up their mind. I have, so you show your ignorance of the very word.

It's your option and mine to become naturalized. Your husband's, too. Ask yourself this: why doesn't he naturalize and become an American citizen? By your definition, your husband is as "wishy-washy" as me.

Also ask him. And, while you're at it, ask him what he thinks of the US-VISIT system and the Japanese policy (which are different). I'd like to hear his responses.

As for this remark:
If you are rich enough to have homes in two countries, that's cool, but you still are just a citizen of one of them, so for the other you are a foreigner.I was referring in a general sense to anyone, so I can easily point out that in many cases (not mine, though) that whether one is rich or not, it is possible to have dual nationality, so it would not impose upon one the option to give up one's original nationality. You hadn't thought of that, had you?

[QUOTE=centrajapan;543662]....This is how it will be in Japan from now on.
....QUOTE]

I highly doubt your ability to predict the future of Japan or even your own country. :-)

You don't need the US big brother stuff. Just abolish the UN resolution against terror which encourages the members to enforce anti-terrorist measures.

I do not know it really worses xenophobia to reject people with criminal records.
If yes, European countries or the US have been xenophobic countries.

Unlike in the US, someone arrested for illegal water (sex) business in Japan can enter Japan again after certain amount of years. Maybe the result would be changed if you would hire a competent immigration lawyer in the US, though.

*snip
As my post was deleted in one of the same threads of yours, yokoso_tee, keep posting.

Japan is USA's lap dog. Or to put it in a more diplomatic way. US is Japan's close allie. Countries who are members of Schengen do not have the fingerprint device yet they have been affected by "Islamic terrorism." Japan has also been affected by terrorism too but only home grown terrorism.

USA is wrong too as they have been victims of both domestinc and international terrorism. US is also discriminating.

The point is: if you refuse to give your prints in Japan you will be arrested and have your prints taken by force. In the USA you will just be sent home. Can't you see the difference?
As for the UK, yes you have to submit fingerprints to get a visa. But from next year, UK citizens will also need to submit fingerprints to get a passport. So no anti-foreigner discimination there. (Visa-waiver travellers to the UK need not give any prints at all.)

Arrested? By force? Who?
Your entry is just refused.
I've never heard of any cases, but some people without fingerprints could luckily enter Japan with the former immigration procedures.
They were really lucky, but I am not sure if they would be lucky if they go to the US or UK.

Gosh, there is actually a requirement for foreign workers to speak/read/write English in England? Shocked.

411mania.com Forums: R.I.P Batman No Really Bruce Wayne Set to Die.::
13 posts - Last post: Nov 29, 2008I do hope they let Talia and the League of Assassins just I don't see the point in bringing her back anyway, yeah, I think you're right.
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Correct if wrong "Fuckin' with the Best" Lyrics by "Project Pat"::
It seems you don't! To read more have a look at our privacy policy. . a cancer stick I blast with no hessitance no fingerprint evidence My mafia resiment
http://edit.mp3lyrics.org/p/project-pat/fuckin-with-the-best/HOME

J-government do not force foreigners to do fingerprint. If they don't like, they can return to his plane to leave Japan. Nobody blame. This is not forcing a person who has a home and perhaps family in Japan, maybe even lived there for years? Who are you trying to kid?

There are a few good points though. It becomes harder to forge passports. In case of an accident it becomes easier to identify boides and people.

Well said. But DNA shall be more accurate than fingerprint. Maybe we should consider.

Fair enough! I try to keep track of the comments on Debito's site in future...

My 2 yens.

Call me stupid but did not the so called hijackers who crashed the airliners into various buildings in US enter US leagally? What if the terrorists are home grown? Up until now there has been no foreign terrorsim in Japan only terrorism carried out by Japanese.

Besides US today is a police state. A step before Martial Law. The government has the right to detain you with no charge or sentence and keep you locked in for god knows how long but long. The government has laws saying that they can tap your telephones, read your emails.Liberties are getting stripped away.

I would be very critical to any measures where my rights are being stripped away. The fingerprinting is one of them.

This is how USA is. It is basically a police state under martial law more or less. It would be sad to see Japan heading the same direction.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6495462761605341661

Japan needs to get rid off Jimintou and have Minshutou who seem to respect liberties and human rights more than jimintou.

Yet every non Japanese who goes through Narita goes through the same procedure as a Japanese charged for a crime.

Any idea why and does it apply to Kansai to?

I think this whole thing is absolutely revolting; abhorrent. It makes me think twice before returning to the country and the people that I love so much, having had to leave four years ago for family reasons...

Shame shame shame on you Japanese ministry - I should like to invite you to my home, but first please give me your DNA - is that enough? Is that the way to treat your guests?? If they are potentially so much trouble in the first place, how about not offering them visas to start with??? Is that too sensible?

:(

I highly doubt your ability to predict the future of Japan or even your own country.

Why not just stick a micro chip up your bum? Then we don´t need any passports or anything. Would that not be great? The finger printing device has been blasted in the media here. But who knows Norway is a part of Schengen so there is a chance that it might be introduced in Europe althogh I sincerily hope not.

In Europe they don´t even stamp your passports when going out or in. It seems alot looser and I like it that way more than being monitored every single move. I don´t believe in giving too much power to the authority like that. I think it is rather scary. It remins me too much of George Orwell.

Good arguments!

The right to privacy is recognized specifically by numerous international human rights treaties. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights recognises the right to privacy under Article 12. Similar language is adopted in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights under Article 17, the United Nations (UN) Convention on Migrant Workers in Article 14, and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child under Article 16. We note that the Japanese Supreme Court has recognized the right to privacy under Article 13 of the Japanese Constitution.

Japan's privacy laws are regarded as weak by international standards. We note that Japan has to some extent applied international standards such as the OECD's Privacy Guidelines into two recent privacy laws. This decreases our confidence that your government has the necessary accountability structures to collect such vast amounts of personal information.

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-558619&als[theme]=Border%20and%20Travel%20Surveillance

USA is rated as the worst country to visit due to this policy. I am glad Japan is following in the same foot steps. Hopefully Japan will knock US off the 1st spot soon. Japan can then boast by saying that they are indeed number one.

How can Japan secure its borders without violating human rights?

Border officials could verify passports against the INTERPOL list of lost and stolen passports from around the world.

http://www.privacyinternational.org/

USA is at the bottom of freedom to privacy and Japan is next to the bottom and will soon be at the same level as USA. UK too is terrible.

All three countries are not very good at protecting vital personal information yet demand personal information. Common sense says that this is not right and fair.

I advise people to cut their fingers in protest and give it the immigration officer. Sooner or later the immigration will not have any place to store all the fingers so they will have to give up this policy. There are 2 million foreigners. Thats 2 million fingers. Plus a few more million tourists. Or if anyone have any Yakuza friends. Ask them for their fingers.

You want my finger? Here. Ill show you finger. Here is an another one. Want more? Maybe a bit dramatic but in dramatic situations we need to be dramatic.

I've been fingerprinted in both Japan and the U.S. In either case it didn't hurt nor was it very inconvenient. It won't harm you if don't commit a crime and it might save you from living next to an Interpol criminal--such as a serial killer. :-)

BTW--yoiotoshio

And besides, I don't have anything to hide, so...

So where do you draw the line? What if they want to pat us all down next? Strip you off and double check. Bend over and cough please sir ;)

The movement is on, and it starts at home, here in Japan.

And you must be feeling "powerless" because you do not have Japanese supports.

The policies are different in Japan and the US. That's one reason for the major complaining

Yes, Westerners often tell "Japanese are ethically wrong but we are right.":blush:

I wonder why some people force facts into become personal issues.

This is quite simple, really. If you are in another country you have to apply by its rules, the worse you can do is try to force your mentality to others on their own country. Not every country is equal and you just have to respect that.

Plus, all this discrimination talk would make sense if anyone was actually being damaged by this policy. Is that true in any way? If it only did you feel bad, why don't you just deal with it?

Best wishes,

About the discrimination, I don't see the big fuzz, Talking Europe, what would you say, if France would start to fingerprint the Portuguese, but not the Spanish? Just for your own safety, of course...

Talking US, what would people say, if the US would start to fingerprint blacks, but not whites, just for their own safety, of course...

Anyway, have a good trip to Japan

Yeah, I don't much like the fingerprinting idea. But doesn't the US do it as well?

Any idea why and does it apply to Kansai to?

Narita was just an example. It is the same in Kansai and every immigration throughout Japan.

The police cannot take finger prints of Japanese. The police dont have a right to do that. Unless the person is convicted of crime . Now foreigners who have no criminal record or someone who has never broken the law are getting the same treatment as Japanese who have broken the law by having to give out finger prints.

The Japanese government says it is due to the war on terrorism but the government and police want to reduce the number of illeagal immigrants in Japan too. There are many reasons to why Japan has implemented this.

The idea of having to give out forced finger prints is the idea that every single non Japanese is a potential criminal or a potential terrorist. I cannot agree with this kind of thinking. In the name of security individual citizens are losng personal rights and freedom.

Sure you can have dual citizenship in the USA, but not in Japan. I didn't know we were bringing many countries in to this discussion. My husband doesn't want US citizenship because his job is in Japan and he had no assurances that he can remain in the USA. He has a very desirable job and isn't looking to leave it. Funny that you brought up asking him his opinion, I did at dinner. He says basically what I wrote previously. He gets fingerprinted and his picture taken every time we enter the USA. As for your situation I still say this, if Japan is your home make it official. Permanent residency just means you can live there for a long time, it doesn't make you any more special than a tourist, other than the length of time overall. Become a Japanese citizen and get over it already.

1) It subjects most but not all foreigners, whether they are visitors or residents, to fingerprinting. That means it lets some foreigners in without fingerprinting.

Because Korean residents with special status push J-government as usual. They prefer half-Japanese/half-Korean status because of more benefits. In the USA, green card holders do not need to do fingerprinting? As far as I know, fingerprintings of green card holders in USA must be required.
http://www.immihelp.com/immigration/fingerprints.html
So Japan is more gentle than USA.

2) It also fingerprints foreigners despite the fact that some have already been fingerprinted years ago, and/or some have valid statuses of residence (whether that is a valid visa or Permanent Resident status).

Fingerprintings are required at airport immigration. It is the same as your country. If Japan requests foreigners for fingerprintings on the road of Tokyo, then prejudice/disriminatory.

3) It also reinstates a policy that the government itself accepted as discriminatory just a few short years ago, as a result of massive law suits.
It is wrong for pretty much the same reasons as above, plus another: When the time changes, law changes. And Japan is a sovereign nation to legislate laws.

4) No foreigner has ever committed a terrorist act on Japanese soil. So, why doesn't the government check its own citizens, the ones who have committed terrorist acts, since terror is the purported reason for this whole policy?
Nobody knows when terror occurs. That's why I said it is PRECAUTION, being the same as YOUR country. So you mean USA DOES check fingerprint of its own nationalities ???

What does this have to do with the issue? Japanese are known to be overly tolerant (read: quiet) of harsh conditions. Perhaps this is one reason to answer your question above.

Maybe we are arguing on different planes..... Probably the most important thing for people to go abroad is .... IF IT'S THE WAY TO DO, LET'S DO IT IN THAT WAY. J-government do not force foreigners to do fingerprint. If they don't like, they can return to his plane to leave Japan. Nobody blame.

I really don't understand why you are so much troubled with fingerprinting, which is the same or better than YOUR country. Or are you telling "I don't like it because I don't like?" Then maybe similar case to Anti-Japanese Whaling.

This is in contrast to the USA, where if somebody refuses to give their prints they may return to their country unhindered, and return to the USA at any time without prejudice.

In return US is much more of a police state than Japan. It monitors its citizens more than Japan. It ranks in the same category as China, Russia. Here comes Uncle Gestapo CIA Sam. It is an endemic surveillence society.

Take a look for yourself.

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-559597

Big brother is watching you. Before you know it. Well have a micro chip up our bum. The police will come barging into our houses and then lock you up in a dark prison cell. ANd the sheeple will still be smiling muttering to himself. Well I have nothing to hide.

4) No foreigner has ever committed a terrorist act on Japanese soil.
For example...
http://homepage3.nifty.com/tompei/NorthKoreaShip.htm
What a heavily armed ship...

This may be a bad example, for the ship did not sink in the soil.

Yeah, I don't much like the fingerprinting idea. But doesn't the US do it as well?
Doesn't make it right.

I think the US doesn't do it to green card holders, essentially what Permanent Residents in Japan are to the Japanese. Plus, there is already enough news out to show that not all foreigners are fingerprinted, how inaccurate the printing is, and how personal data gets made public from goofs in the government here.

WRONG. It is simple that you cannot enter Japan when you refuse the fingreprint. This is exactly the same as in the US and UK.

The point is: if you refuse to give your prints in Japan you will be arrested and have your prints taken by force. In the USA you will just be sent home. Can't you see the difference?

As for the UK, yes you have to submit fingerprints to get a visa. But from next year, UK citizens will also need to submit fingerprints to get a passport. So no anti-foreigner discimination there. (Visa-waiver travellers to the UK need not give any prints at all.)

Again, I humbly ask you if the Japanese embassy requested of you to submit the criminial record like most European countries and the US or not.

Sorry, the answer is yes, I was asked for details of any criminal record I might have. And I was asked again when I applied to extend my visa.

And, how do you respond to the statement that none of Japan's terrorist acts have come from foreigners?
Or that the fingerprinting system is flawed, not just because the machines don't work or because fingerprinting itself if not 100% accurate, but because the fingerprinting policy does not include all foreigners.
I am neither a criminal nor ex-criminal, yet I am screened.
The movement is on, and it starts at home, here in Japan.
The policies are different in Japan and the US. That's one reason for the major complaining.

That's why I said But it's just an extra precaution against terrorists.
Nothing perfect in this world.

In Broader definition, "Passport" is the same concept as fingerprinting policy. It's just more sophisticated technology than passport.

WRONG! If a foreigner refuses to give their fingerprints, they will be arrested and will have their fingerprints taken by force (http://www.debito.org/index.php/?p=777), and then deported (and consequently barred from Japan for 10 years.)
This is in contrast to the USA, where if somebody refuses to give their prints they may return to their country unhindered, and return to the USA at any time without prejudice.

WRONG. It is simple that you cannot enter Japan when you refuse the fingreprint. This is exactly the same as in the US and UK.
About the UK, this is applied to the visa applicants.

I do not know much about your country's case, the UK, but in term of the US, it is quite interesting for me to read some threads, "HELP! I have a criminal record(s), but I want to go to America", somewhere like 2ch.

Again, I humbly ask you if the Japanese embassy requested of you to submit the criminial record like most European countries and the US or not.

Well, the first few seconds I saw the news on the fingerprinting issue I was kind of upset.. But then again it seems like a lot of fun too! :D And besides, I don't have anything to hide, so...

But yeah I have to agree that it seems a bit discriminatory. It would have been better if they fingerprinted all the travellers, including the Japanese nationals, because then there would be no finger-pointing about discrimination.

On the other hand I also believe they missed a chance by not incorporating iris-scans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_scan), which are way cooler!! :blush: At our dear Schiphol airport in Holland, iris scanning has made passport free immigration (http://www.schiphol.nl/privium/portlet/Irisscan.jsp?PORTLET%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673765529&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302572265&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395729234&VIRTUAL_TEMPLATE%3C%3Evt_id=10134198673766991&bmUID=1134246540515) possible!! :-)

Japan on the other hand is trying to lure more tourists into the country with the Yokoso Japan campaign yet treat every foreigner who enters the country as a criminal suspect.

What was the catalyst or reason for reinstating this policy now?
That is a very good question. Some say Japan is the USA's pawn. Some say Japan is just following suit. Funny, though, how they both ended up using the same company (Accenture) to do the printing. Anyway, I suspect there is more to it than any of the above. Why do I say that? Read on.

I just tried compiling a history of events and got into a real rat's nest of human rights issues more than 20 years old (and now thanks to Morikawa's article in yesterday's Japan Times, even further back).
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20080108zg.html
I still don't have an answer I can pinpoint.

The latest fingerprinting policy seems to have started in the English press roughly late 2003/early 2004. See here for an interesting take on it, showing that even Japanese politicians find the situation somewhat flaky.
http://gyaku.jp/en/index.php?cmd=contentview&pid=000188

U.S. tries to ease entry for foreign travelers.

In February, Eric Rozenberg, a Belgian travel executive, was en route to a convention in Cancun, Mexico, from Brussels when, he said, he experienced firsthand what other foreign travelers had told him about the problems of getting into the United States.

He said an official took him aside with no explanation as he went through immigration in the Dallas-Fort Worth airport and sent him to a separate room.

After waiting there nearly 90 minutes, Rozenberg, who travels to the United States on business at least six times a year, said, he "very politely" asked another officer what was taking so long. The officer glanced at Rozenberg's passport again, told him to wait another 10 minutes, then handed it back to him without explanation.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/18/business/entry.php?page=1

This is how it will be in Japan from now on.

I hope the new American president will rid off the finger printing devices in US as that would probably help make Japan do the same.

Its the New World Order. One world government. Big brother wanting to monitor you more and more. The elite in US and Japan are very close. They have the same mind set.

Little regards for human rights and liberties. Most of the people in US and Japan are fairly apathetic towards politics. They have a it does not concern me attitude. The flip side is maybe others think the politicians are controling you more than what you believe.

Its strange that both US and Japan use the same company. The way it was presented in the main stream media in Japan was on fear of these dangerous foreigners which Japan has to protect against and they kept showing the airplanes ramming into WTC over and over. Its such over simplified manipulation of the peoples mind and the sheeple mind set starts to tick in on people.

There are a few good points though. It becomes harder to forge passports. Incase of an accident it becomes easier to identify boides and people.

Glennski is right here. It is discriminatory and it is just wrong. If it was for counter terrorist reasons then the personal info should be deleted right away but instead it is not and will also be used in criminal investigations.This violates the foreigners' right to privacy. What is bad here is that the police can not demand Japanese to give out finger prints if they are not charged for a crime. Yet every non Japanese who goes through Narita goes through the same procedure as a Japanese charged for a crime.

Unless you like 1984 George Orwell and want a non democratic police state this is the worst news since Bush became president of USA and could have extreme severe consequences once the data comes into wrong hands.

I am against it. I liked the reasoning for why this is a bad idea by this gentleman.

these kinds of things are always used first on the weakest part of the population, and then they are expanded.

So it's aimed at Japanese people, not at foreigners, and that's why you have to fight these things. They tend to be used initially against a group [about whom] everybody says: "oh, we have to protect ourselves from them". If you ask an average Japanese person who hasn't thought about this issue much in Japan, they'll say, oh yeah, we could fingerprint foreigners. Why not? It's only 5 minutes at the airport. And if they don't have anything to hide, then what's the problem? And anyway, there are some foreigners who are criminals, you know. People say that, right?

But those kinds of things tend to be used in that way and then expanded and used against everybody. And that's why I think Japanese people should be against this.

http://reentryjapan.blogspot.com/2007/12/sophia-university-professor-david.html

blatantly discriminatory and wrong.

I don't change subject but I am pointing out "behind the scene".

How it's possible to state flaterly blatantly discriminatory and wrong.
Because you believe that Justice is on your side???

Let me tell you in different way.

1. I have NEVER EVER heard that Japanese living in foreign countries protest policies of those foreign countries.

2. But I sometimes (not often) heard that foreigners living in Japan protest policies of J-government.

WHY is that?

I do realize that it is a sad situation, but instead of poiting at Japan, I would like to know what pressure the US and Europe has exercised on Japan to change this. I have the idea that on a individual level the bargaining position is very bad, but a group of countries might pull off the trick.
Having said that, the fact that America started the fingerprinting issue makes it all a bit awkward. I think that if we want Japan to stop this practice, we should first try to stop the practices of Japan's big brother US.
And just how do you propose that residents of Japan do that? No, I don't think that will be very viable. This conversation is not about what other countries do. They have their own reasons and policies. This thread is about what Japan is doing and why they should change. The change needs to come from within, IMO. A small change has already happened in that there are now 3 lines instead of two for the fingerprinting and photographing. It still doesn't address the overall policy, but the point is that if enough people complain from within, there is more likely a chance of making a change.

Moreover, if you want to have outside influences change Japan, that's just too much to ask. Change one or more other countries just to give Japan a different example to follow? Personally, I don't see as how that's going to work.

I think of it another way, too. How many other countries have tried to shame Japan into making apologies over wartime atrocities? Lots, yet they have not done it. Nope, Japan needs to see itself for what it is, and that means having its own residents spur the change.

Moreover, you seem to shrug off the notion that being human = being discriminatory = ok.Oops, that's not what I meant to say. I meant to say that I have given up trying to show to Japanese people (when talking about such a subject) that foreigners are as human as they are, and that they shouldn't discriminate. Often the things I say fall on deaf man's ears anyway.. I still do think discrimination is wrong and that any country not forbidding discrimination is kind of sad.

I know about the treaty and yes, they haven't done a single thing to change their laws. The law forbidding discrimination amongst its Japanese citizens still doesn't say a thing about people in general. I do realize that it is a sad situation, but instead of poiting at Japan, I would like to know what pressure the US and Europe has exercised on Japan to change this. I have the idea that on a individual level the bargaining position is very bad, but a group of countries might pull off the trick.

Having said that, the fact that America started the fingerprinting issue makes it all a bit awkward. I think that if we want Japan to stop this practice, we should first try to stop the practices of Japan's big brother US.

You people seem to still be missing the bigger picture.

In USA. Citizens have no right to privacy in constitution, though search and seizure protections exist in 4th Amendment; case law on government searches has considered new technology

Recent news regarding FBI biometric database raises particular concerns as this could lead to the largest database of biometrics around the world that is not protected by strong privacy law

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-559597

In Japan.

No explicit right to privacy in constitution though Supreme Court has interpreted a substantial right as falling under Article 13 on right to life an liberty

No comprehensive privacy law, instead only guidelines for specific industries; and some legislation in some sectors.

Surveillance cameras continue to spread despite constitutional issue.

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-559597

The right to privacy is being abused by governments. Thats the issue. Thats the biggest issue! While the countries which demand personal info does not have safe guards to protect that vital info while surveillence is increasing.

I am afraid the personal info can be manipulated or lost.

This anti gaijin gaijin stuff is only a small picture of the larger picture. This is about human rights. We as indivuduals have a right to not give personal info to the authority without a charge. This is why we have the Geneva Conventions, Human Right laws. It is to protect the weak from explotaition from authority. Its about personal space. We as individuals have to respect laws and regulations but this is a two way street. The authority and the police have to respect their laws too.

This is the first step towards enslavement of people. Sooner or later we will have micro chip implants in our skull and a society based on points. The goverment gives out points instead of cash. If the government doesnt like you he then cuts off your micro chip. The government will then have total control over you. You become enslaved. The personal info and the aparatus which comes with it has to be stored could be used and easily manipulated. It is not a good idea to give out personal information and letting the government store the info.

Well you are right, absolutely; it is a form of xenophobia that reeks of discrimination. But to be honest I have given up in trying to come up with arguments why the Japanese government and its people should believe that they are as much human as we are. If they would like to believe they're different, or maybe even better, it's their problem. If it would bother me that much, I'd just stop going to Japan.
That goes for tourists. There is another camp of people -- residents who hold visas or permanent resident status. There isn't so much of a choice for us. We live here. So, whether one considers the J government as "human" or not, how about thinking of us residents?

Moreover, you seem to shrug off the notion that being human = being discriminatory = ok. Sorry. I don't agree with that logic. It's not their problem. It's the problem of everyone here, Japanese or otherwise. Please try to remember that Japan signed the treaty against discrimination over 10 years ago, but they are doing nothing to show that they actually believe in it (by enacting laws). Nothing. In fact, with the fingerprinting policy, one might say they are actually going against the very treaty they signed.

I don't really see the problem here.
I've my fingerprint taken and presented in my national identification card every 4/5 years. It is stored by the Portugal government and I guess used to identify people that commited crimes and such, or just to undoubtely identify someone.
About the discrimination, I don't see the big fuzz, what so if it is discriminatory? :clueless::

It sure won't ruin my japan trip this year. :-)

I don't really see the problem here.
Well, no offense, hideway, but you need to read more. As has been mentioned on several threads on this web site alone, the fingerprinting policy here has major flaws and is very discriminatory. Moreover, as a tourist to Japan, you might be like Goldiegirl and not feel miffed at all, but as a resident like me, one will. Oh, and the Japanese don't have national ID cards, mostly because the Japanese refuse to have them. Big difference.

Astroboy wrote: Originally Posted by Glenski
The movement is on, and it starts at home, here in Japan.

And you must be feeling "powerless" because you do not have Japanese supports. Actually, there is some Japanese support, just not enough.

Astroboy wrote: Quote:The policies are different in Japan and the US. That's one reason for the major complaining

Yes, Westerners often tell "Japanese are ethically wrong but we are right."Don't change the subject. I am not saying anything like that. In fact, I tell many foreigners who want to come here to be very careful about imposing western morals on Japanese ways. The fingerprinting policy is blatantly discriminatory and wrong.

Astroboy wrote: That's why I said But it's just an extra precaution against terrorists.
Nothing perfect in this world.An "extra precaution" that is horribly flawed, not just "imperfect".

Goldiegirl wrote: Fingerprint me. I had to give fingerprints to open my bank account.Do you have to give fingerprints every time you make a bank transaction? No. Do your fingerprints at the bank get scrutinized by the government everytime you enter the bank? No. Are your fingerprints shared by other banks and government entities and the police and Interpol? No. Big difference, but you just don't seem to get it.

Actually I have no idea what my bank did or does with my fingerprints. Why are you so worried about your fingerprints going to interpol, or other governments? Seems like you are making a lot of noise....more noise than what this issue is worth. If you don't want to get fingerprinted then give up your American citizenship and BECOME JAPANESE. That would solve your problem. It seems that you are miffed because you are being treated different than a Japanese citizen, well, hello, you are different, you aren't even Japanese. I don't care what paper you have...resident...whatever, you still can't change the fact the you ARE a USA citizen and that's what your passport says, and that is legally the country you "belong" to. If you want to live and die in Japan and not have to follow there rules for non-citizens turn in your American passport and get a Japanese one. Make a commitment to the country you want to claim as your own.

Actually, if you refuse to submit your fingerprints, here is what the Ministry of Justice says will happen:

Your immigration control officer will carefully examine your case, to determine whether or not you fall into one of the exempt categories. If, despite it having been determined that you do not fall into any exempt category, you refuse to submit personally identifying information, you will denied entry to Japan and ordered to leave. http://www.moj.go.jp/NYUKAN/nyukan64-2-1.pdf (FAQs from the following site):
http://www.moj.go.jp/ENGLISH/IB/ip.html

No mention made of anyone being arrested.

The Mainichi Shinbun on Nov. 21 wrote that:
According to the Mainichi today, the Justice Ministry has now issued a “tsuuchi” directive (the GOJ Mandarins’ way of minting laws without going through a legislative body) granting Immigration more powers. People who refuse to get fingerprinted will not only be refused at the border, but also forced to have fingerprints taken. as well as a physical inspection and incarceration in the airport Gaijin Tank.
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20071121-00000017-mai-soci&kz=soci
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/national/news/20071121p2a00m0na033000c.html

Read the comments at this blog which describes the whole thing. http://www.debito.org/index.php/?p=777
Pay close attention to the information cited by commentors 11, 14, and 15.

Geez, so are permanent residents, Kyoto Returnee, yet we have to be printed and photo'd. Your argument doesn't hold water, just like the government.

Plus there are other registered people (human beings, Homo sapiens, not just Japanese citizens) that are actually exempt from the process!

The change that should be made is that permanent-visa holders should be able to just walk true.

for tourists it should not be such a big thing.

Would you please stop bringing up the weak attempt to compare Japan's system with that of the USA? They are not the same!

I think it is same no matter what reasons.
It is necessary to always prepare it.

I think it's understandable fingerprinting and taking photos of foreigners entering Japan for security reasons in this day and age..

Let's face it, people living (citizens) in Japan are all accounted for and registered with their local ward or are they?

So presuming yes, no need to fingerprint the citizens.

But then again...

Forget "new world order". This is about fingerprinting policy in Japan, ok?

Its strange that both US and Japan use the same company. The way it was presented in the main stream media in Japan was on fear of these dangerous foreigners "These dangerous foreigners". Yeah, I know all about them. The governement harped on 9/11, but it also made claims that the policy was meant to protect Japan against serious medical problems brought in by foreigners, too. Equally unfounded.

in the main stream media in Japan was on fear of these dangerous foreigners which Japan has to protect against and they kept showing the airplanes ramming into WTC over and over.Please point out precisely what main stream media had such a thing, other than one video put out by the Ministry of Justice. In order to get that "over and over", you would have to sit and repeat it yourself. This was never, as far as my J wife and others recall, really put forth on TV (which I consider far more to be "mainstream media").

Its such over simplified manipulation of the peoples mind and the sheeple mind set starts to tick in on people. At least you got that right.

There are a few good points though. It becomes harder to forge passports. Incase of an accident it becomes easier to identify boides and people.How is a fingerprint policy supposed to make it harder to forge a passport? And, nobody every mentioned identifying bodies from accidents in the immigration fingerprinting policy. Remember, too, that not everyone is covered, and if this was one of the purposes, they should have been printing everyone. You are reaching.

The J-Gov thinks you probably do, because you're foreign and therefore likely to be a criminal. Why go along with this xenophobia?Well you are right, absolutely; it is a form of xenophobia that reeks of discrimination. But to be honest I have given up in trying to come up with arguments why the Japanese government and its people should believe that they are as much human as we are. If they would like to believe they're different, or maybe even better, it's their problem. If it would bother me that much, I'd just stop going to Japan.And, it doesn't matter if you have nothing to hide. Besides the principle of the while thing, your prints may end up being misread by police, and you could be falsely accused or arrested.Hm.. That is a scary thought indeed, now that it is pretty much an accepted idea that the Japanese police is a champion in forcing people to confess (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34226) things they have not done. I find your argument the most convincing in why one should be against such fingerprinting practices..

I am not reason enough, I knew what getting married to a "foreigner" could entail. I know that I may eventually end up living in Japan on a permanent basis. That was the choice I made, and I made it knowing full well what I was getting myself into.

My husbands job is in Japan. So he remains Japanese. Your job is in Japan you remain American? ( I don't work, I don't have to, so unless I get a job that makes way more money than my husbands - which is impossible - he is the provider for our family and therefore his choice on which country we live in is given more weight. I knew that before getting married as well.)

I couldn't give you his word for word opinion of you. It would have been censored. He basically said get out if your don't like it. Go HOME! (to your passport) If you don't like it leave. But you can pepper it with some extra words if you so desire.

You are an official RESIDENT not a CITIZEN...you are NOT special! Get over yourself already. This is so old with you. You have no right to tell a country which you are not a citizen how to run there border policies. You pay taxes basically as a fee to stay in that country, you are paying for the privilege of living in Japan while not becoming a Japanese citizen.

And besides, I don't have anything to hide, so...

The J-Gov thinks you probably do, because you're foreign and therefore likely to be a criminal. Why go along with this xenophobia?

I will like to inform you that now there are two checks. One at the part where you get fingerprinted, or in the case of Japanese citizens, the line where you will only have your passport scanned and stamped. But in the second line, Japanese immigration has decided to throroughly flip through your passport to ask you thoroughly where you have been. Virgin passports and passports having only entry, exit stamps of Japan are now thoroghly questioned. To go home therefore, Japanese citizens who are dual citizens with another country will now have to fly to a third country where there is only an entry but no exit stamp to appear as if you spent a long time there. Then, when you return to Japan, I recommend you fly to Hong Kong or somewhere and collect a bunch of stamps taking some cheap flights on Air Asia then go to Japan.

Sorry to sound paranoid for you all, but this is what will be required.

I don't like the idea but they'll do what they do... If it continues then i guess i can't do too much about it... But it feel it is very discriminatory...

Maybe we are arguing on different planes..... Probably the most important thing for people to go abroad is .... IF IT'S THE WAY TO DO, LET'S DO IT IN THAT WAY. J-government do not force foreigners to do fingerprint. If they don't like, they can return to his plane to leave Japan. Nobody blame.

How true: same as luggage searches, passports in general: it is part of world travel: this is just an upgraded ID check, which will be world wide fairly soon I would think.

Japan's fingerprinting policy must be annoying to foreigners, I understand. I experienced that in US airport, and it was annoyed. But it's just an extra precaution against terrorists. Plus, better screening criminals and ex-criminals especially from certain countries.

Used to be...Japan was a heaven for North Korean spy, South Korean/Chinese illegal immigrants.

But funny thing is .... if Japan introduced fingerprinting policy first in the world, what will have happened? I'm sure there must have been a big anti-Japan movement in the world.
Fortunately, USA introduced first, and then Japan followed. Thus, it is none of anti-Japan movement.

BTW, I don't know why EU has not introduced the policy yet? Is EU safer than USA/Japan in terms of terrorists? Or cannot introduce it because the policy contradicts with its "philanthropism"?? Personally I am very interested how long EU can keep non-fingerprinting policy.

I dont understand what the problem of figerprinting policy is ...:p
It cooperates with pleasure if going to the foreign country.
I think no Japanese complain about that if there is same policy in foreign country,
btw
it checked english language ability to work in England?
I think it is a discrimination

Actually, they don't really. Many Japanese were fingerprinted by the USA.
By the way, Malaysia does the opposite. It has tighter security on its own citizens than foreigners, and is vilgilant in looking for dual citizens, sharing that biometric strip with singapore and thailand to cross reference dual citizens.

The change that should be made is that permanent-visa holders should be able to just walk true.

for tourists it should not be such a big thing.
What about people on SOFA (including military spouses and children and most contractors)?
Or diplomats?

Your husband's job is in Japan, yet he works in the USA. I take it there is a branch office there?

So he couldn't muster any civilized remarks, eh? Well, one can't really argue with pejoratives and epithets, can one? I'm certain you phrased the situation carefully enough to make the question one-sided enough.

Gee, yes, I remain American. Why is that so hard to fathom? Come here, live, and change your nationality. You'll only have to go through the US-VISIT system yourself and suffer the indignities of that process then.

As for me, I pay taxes because I am a responsible person who obeys the laws. Doesn't matter if I'm a citizen or not. I do my duty where I live. Not all foreigners do. I don't have to naturalize to live here, and it is incomprehensible why you imagine that a person should.

And, yes, I am special. You compared me to a tourist. I am not a tourist. Stop throwing smokescreens up with comparisons to citizens now. You dance badly.

And, yes, I do have a right to tell a country where I reside how I feel about its border policies, especially when they go against the human rights policies that country claims to follow but doesn't. So does the U.N. (and it does, too). Are you going to slag the U.N. now?

I don't change subject but I am pointing out "behind the scene".
How it's possible to state flaterly blatantly discriminatory and wrong.
Because you believe that Justice is on your side???The policy is obviously discriminatory. Let me try to point out for the millionth time why:

1) It subjects most but not all foreigners, whether they are visitors or residents, to fingerprinting. That means it lets some foreigners in without fingerprinting.
2) It also fingerprints foreigners despite the fact that some have already been fingerprinted years ago, and/or some have valid statuses of residence (whether that is a valid visa or Permanent Resident status).
3) It also reinstates a policy that the government itself accepted as discriminatory just a few short years ago, as a result of massive law suits.

It is wrong for pretty much the same reasons as above, plus another:
4) No foreigner has ever committed a terrorist act on Japanese soil. So, why doesn't the government check its own citizens, the ones who have committed terrorist acts, since terror is the purported reason for this whole policy?

Let me tell you in different way.
1. I have NEVER EVER heard that Japanese living in foreign countries protest policies of those foreign countries.
2. But I sometimes (not often) heard that foreigners living in Japan protest policies of J-government.
WHY is that?What does this have to do with the issue? Japanese are known to be overly tolerant (read: quiet) of harsh conditions. Perhaps this is one reason to answer your question above. Perhaps another is that you have not heard what may have actually happened. Who knows? But your question itself is off-topic and a smokescreen tangent to this discussion. The topic here is a discriminatory policy in Japan and against foreigners. So, you are changing the subject. Please don't.

Goldiegirl wrote: Why are you so worried about your fingerprints going to interpol, or other governments? Seems like you are making a lot of noise....more noise than what this issue is worth. Easy for you to say as a passing tourist, but totally naive. One reason to be worried is that the government is known to leak private information to the public accidentally. Another is that most foreigners here are not criminals, yet we are being treated as such. A third is that fingerprinting is not 100% accurate, so it is possible, even with 99.9% accuracy for the system to make false identification as a criminal. This may be brushed off by some people, but think about it. You might be able to explain away your innocence, but why should you have to be grilled over it, whether at the airport or anywhere else where prints similar to yours have been found? Very embarrassing for you if you have to tell your employer or friends or family that you are unable to go to work, school, home, or elsewhere because you are under arrest for a suspected crime you did not commit, all because a stupid governmental system was imposed, over false pretenses, and shared your prints with any governmental body or police force in or outside of Japan. It is more than embarrassing, though. You could be treated with mistrust for a long time by people who used to trust you, just because of a cloud of false suspicion hanging over you. You might even risk losing your job or visa.

give up your American citizenship and BECOME JAPANESEYou obviously don't recognize how asinine that sounds, do you? Why should I have to be forced into a corner such as that just because the Japanese government insists on instituting a flawed and discriminatory system? I shouldn't and I won't. Perhaps it is you who should become Japanese so you don't have to risk any of the problems inherent in the system. What do you say to that? It seems to be your only way out.

It seems that you are miffed because you are being treated different than a Japanese citizen,I've told you before at least once. You just don't get it. This is not the reason people like me are upset.

As for making a commitment to the country I belong to, I do. I carry an American passport. I file for American taxes. I retain my voting rights. I have money in American banks. The reason I live here is irrelevant. What do you have to say about people who are rich enough to have homes in more than two countries? What should they do about their citizenship?

Japan's fingerprinting policy must be annoying to foreigners, I understand. I experienced that in US airport, and it was annoyed. But it's just an extra precaution against terrorists.And, how do you respond to the statement that none of Japan's terrorist acts have come from foreigners?

Or that the fingerprinting system is flawed, not just because the machines don't work or because fingerprinting itself if not 100% accurate, but because the fingerprinting policy does not include all foreigners.

Plus, better screening criminals and ex-criminals especially from certain countries. I am neither a criminal nor ex-criminal, yet I am screened.

But funny thing is .... if Japan introduced fingerprinting policy first in the world, what will have happened? I'm sure there must have been a big anti-Japan movement in the world.The movement is on, and it starts at home, here in Japan.

Fortunately, USA introduced first, and then Japan followed. Thus, it is none of anti-Japan movement.The policies are different in Japan and the US. That's one reason for the major complaining.

Call me stupid but did not the so called hijackers who crashed the airliners into various buildings in US enter US leagally? What if the terrorists are home grown? Up until now there has been no foreign terrorsim in Japan only terrorism carried out by Japanese.

Besides US today is a police state. A step before Martial Law. The government has the right to detain you with no charge or sentence and keep you locked in for god knows how long but long. The government has laws saying that they can tap your telephones, read your emails.Liberties are getting stripped away.

I would be very critical to any measures where my rights are being stripped away. The fingerprinting is one of them.